June 21st, 2008
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FacebookDivine Election and God’s Desire for All to Be Saved
My aim here is to show from Scripture that the simultaneous existence of God’s will for “all persons to be saved” (1 Tim. 2:4) and his will to elect unconditionally those who will actually be saved is not a sign of divine schizophrenia or exegetical confusion. A corresponding aim is to show that unconditional election therefore does not contradict biblical expressions of God’s compassion for all people, and does not nullify sincere offers of salvation to everyone who is lost among all the peoples of the world.
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That was as thorough an explanation of God’s will as revealed in Scripture as you’re likely to get anywhere else. Brilliant stuff!
Ever get the feeling there are Christians and then there are Calvinists?
Most Christians do. I wonder if you have ever studied much psychology. If so, you know that there are certain types of people who gravitate toward certain types of subjects and for some reason not much else interests them.
Its not the norm though and thats why there are not many calvinists.
Same thing for atheists. No matter what you show them they are so myopic they cant see the big picture.
BTW..Im not equating them with you brother. But pointing out how bias can make cause us to disregard the things that are quite plain. Also, I find you a very nice and thoughtful calvinist who doesnt go the absurd scripture twisting of saying “ALL” doesnt mean all and the other blatent proof texting.
Jesus came to show us what God was like. He was not this glory seeking God who was all about making himself supreme. As I said..myopic. Your picking and choosing verses so your puzzle only has a 1/4 of the peices in place. It doesnt make a picture. BTW I dont think Arminiasm does either. I think is a great deal more complicated than either view.
You might translate “how often I have longed to gather your children together, … but you were not willing! Because I made you not willing”
or Paul after his election speech in Romans..” but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. 32 WHY NOT? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. Oh yeah and because I made them do that.”
Article after article your fanatical about presenting a small portion of scripture to prove the rest wrong. Regarding WILLS..its like you dont even understand what a will is. Everyones *Single will behaves in a manner of what *can be and what *should be.
The bible explains in hundreds of places WHY man rejects God. You only pick one–God doesnt let them accept him.
Whatever psychological need you have for rejecting the overwhelming body of scripture for the Most difficult passages in scripture to comprehend(predestination)…you must address that–or its myopia till the Lord comes.
Maybe you should study the mans life(Calvin) who championed this doctrine to get a taste of what type of psyche would cling to such ideas. After all, he did want a few people burned alive and have others heads cut off– did he not? Not exactly Christ like, disciple like, or Christian like wouldnt you say? The NT brought a new way–Jesus–a servant of Humanity. For cryin out loud he died for us–not for applause.
You putting God in a box. Your a pebble telling a mountain what it is. I doubt you will leave it alone because calvinists salivate over telling all of Christianity they are wrong but the Love of God for mankind is clearly portrayed as supreme over his love for his own glory. Jesus Christs entire life was all about teaching that to us. God is not a pleasure seeker.
In God’s infinite wisdom there is a balance between Predestination and freewill–otherwise the Bible is contradicitng itself. But if man would use a little wisdom themselves and little less arrogance about proclaiming they *Know exactly whats going on –maybe God can be God and we can just be the little infants that we are.
Thank you for telling us we are wrong for telling other people they are wrong. I love the fact that you’re accusing us of giving God too much glory!
John,
With all due respect you are misrepresenting what actual Calivinists believe and they do not follow a man. They follow to the best of their abilities what the Bible says. And eberyone has a form of systematic theology they adhere to, even those who claim they don’t follow as a system what they think the Bible says.
And let me set this straight for you. Look it up for yourself; prior ot being regenerated the Bible teaches we were slaves to sin. No free will there other than to sin, e.g. Romans 6:14-18. And then after becoming Christians we are slaves of God (Greek: doulos, no free will there except to call upon God for strength not to returm to serving Satan and sin.
So properly put, in a very real sense, man does have a free will. He is free to choose the type of sin he’ll engage in. This is what human beings by their fallen nature are–sinners, which is the root of the doctrine of original sin. I’m thankful I could clear that up for you.
John, I am deeply saddened by the terribly false view you are presenting here of Calvinism. I would challenge you to read Jonathan Edward’s “Freedom of the Will” and consider how Dr. Piper explains it, “The will is free to do as it pleases, the only problem is that it only pleases to sin until regeneration”.
Also, I’m not calling you a prideful or arrogant man, but the overall attitude of your comment certainly seemed arrogant and haughty, so as a brother in Christ I would like to caution you to watch how you speak to people, because sounding as though you are talking down to others doesn’t accomplish much.
Also, as to your comment about John Calvin’s life, Mr. Silva said it very well when he said ” they do not follow a man. They follow to the best of their abilities what the Bible says.” But, also, that is a very weak thing to pose against us because you would be asking us to commit a genetic logical fallacy (concluding an idea is wrong simply because it came from a certain individual).
Anyway, if you are an Armenian and have studied all of the supports for Calvinism, than blessings to you brother, thats where God has you. But I would caution you from speaking so strongly against Calvinism if you don’t truly grasp what it really says; I personally think that is poor scholarship and will not benefit you or others
Blessings,
Zack
P.S. IF we were studying Calvinist’s life to discover the “psyche” would cling to that doctrine. We would have to study the likes of St. Augustine, Luther, John Owens, B.B. Warfield, Henry Scougal, and MANY others who, by even the strictest of standards would be considered very kind, gentle, and loving people such as R.C. Sproul, John Piper and a personal friend of mine who happens to be the most kind and gentle men I know. So you judgment as to Calvinist being of a particular “psyche” which you were referring was harsh, mean, and un-Christ-like is blatantly, sorry to say it but, arrogant. Period. It also commits the logical fallacy know as a Hasty Generalization.
edit:
*which you were INferring was harsh, mean, and un-Christ-like*
Sorry about that.
Well said, Zack. A lot, if not all, of the conflict I have experienced would have been avoided had those who objected to Calvinism actually understood what it taught, rather than just assume they knew. It’s really no better than the cult groups accusing Trinitarians of believing in three gods.
I hope God explains this to me…because I am lost
Jesus has righteous and holy anger against the calvinist religion Jesus didnt go to calvary to make a bunch of pharisees to uphold a reformed theological right-that some are called predestined and others.arent- he went to the cross for redemption sake and shedding his precious blood making atoning for sin being the Lamb of God – calvinism prevents people from knowing and understanding the kingdom of God and hinders people from entering the kingdom of heaven-that is why jesus rebuked the pharisees of his day… the love of God is what john calvin knew little of .. he didnt understand what it was to be follower of Christ…he twisted the scriptures for his own views
Hi Timothy,
Can you give any examples to support what you have said here?