June 27th, 2008
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FacebookFact or Fiction; Scripture or Tradition? The following is an examination of fifteen of the most often used arguments by Roman Catholic adherents in their defense of their near deification of Mary, (along with a brief response to each argument).
Argument 1). Mary was blessed among women: FACT
Mary was blessed, however, so is every Believer. To make the leap that because Mary was blessed she should receive the adoration/veneration/worship that she’s given is not Scripturally logical. In fact, Scripture records the way Jesus handled the first attempt to elevate Mary’s status. In Luke 11:27-28 a woman in the crowd tried to draw attention away from Christ and to Mary (what the RCC has perfected) but Jesus corrected her saying, “On the contrary, blessed are those who hear the word of God and obey it. “ (Luke 11:27-28). Also, Mary wasn’t/isn’t the only person blessed. See the Sermon on the Mount for a list of others who are “blessed” (Matthew 5:3-11).
Argument 2). Mary is worthy of/deserves our adoration and veneration: FICTION
No human is worthy of any amount of veneration or worship because we are all sinners (Psalm 14:3, Romans 3:23); we are to worship God and serve Him only (Matthew 4:10); and God will not give His Glory to another (Isaiah 42:8, 48:11).
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What a wonderful article! I would like to see Catholics response to this.
Catholicism is a false religion. I hope one day Catholics can see that this is a false religion and that they can come to the true God.
Mary is just an ordinary woman and it is not biblical to pray to Mary or even worship her.
I pray that all Catholics can open there hearts and turn away from this false religion because if they don’t they won’t have eternal life they will spend there time in hell!
Hi Venus,
I will offer a response. I worship the triune God. The 2nd person of the blessed trinity is Jesus Christ who became man and was born of the Virgin Mary. I am trusting in the cross and resurrection of Jesus Christ for my salvation, and I am at peace with that. I agree that Jesus Christ did not create a false religion, but the New Testament is very clear that he did build a Church.
Most of that article is stereotypical drivel and very hard to respond to (kinda like asking if I’m still beating my wife). I will point out 2 obvious contradictions from the article:
1. [“Furthermore, it is Jesus who is our advocate with the Father (1 John 2:1-2)” “there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus . . .” (1 Timothy 2:5)]. Both of these scriptures are in my bible and I agree with them whole heartedly. If these verses mean that we can go to Jesus alone with any petitions or needs, then why is there a giant bold heading at the top of this blog that says “PRAYER REQUESTS – SUBMIT REQUESTS AND PRAY”? Doyou guys have Jesus’s direct email address or something?
2. [“Argument 10). Mary ascended into Heaven: FICTION.”] I agree. Jesus Christ ascended into Heaven because he is God and he has the omnipotent power to do so. Mary was assumed into heaven (The Assumption – passive tense) because Mary is the child of a sovereign God and can do nothing without his Grace. I accept this on faith because I was not there, and I agree that it was not literally chronicled in the bible. I also believe that Mary changed the Lord’s diapers when he was a baby, although it is not literally chronicled in the bible. The closest thing I can give you for proof of the assumption, is that there has never been any historical record of Mary’s grave. As carrried away as some catholics can get with relics and statues (yes, even to the point of superstition), you would think that spot is clearly marked. The big house in Rome itself is built right on top of the bones of St. Peter. If any cell of Mary’s dead body existed any where in this world, I’m pretty sure there would be a catholic (or Eastern Orthodox) shrine built there, and at the very least some good sisters would be praying the rosary 24 hours a day.
“Brothers, pray for us.” (1 Thes. 5:25; 2 Thes. 3:1) Did Paul consider the Thessalonian church a mediator between himself and God? Please read James 5:13-20, Brett.
Ben,
Thank you for the suggestions. I do faithfully read the bible regularly; I just don’t do it to win arguments.
Do you consider born again Christians ordinary? Do you consider the saints in heaven ordinary? Do you consider Mary a Christian?
I don’t doubt you read your Bible, Brett. I never questioned that. I was only pointing out a text relevant to our conversation.
Ben,
So is Mary a Christian, or is that not relevant?
Yeah, she is.
Hope, it wasn’t to painful to agree with me on that.
For the record, I don’t pray the rosary regulary and I don’t feel guilty about it, (though some Catholics try to make me feel guilty). I don’t have any problem with it and I think it’s a beautiful devotion; but I just didn’t grow up with it and I prefer to just sit and read my bible quietly.
Brett, no body has a problem with Mary, she was blessed among women (Luke 1:42), however that does not give us the right to practice necromancy (Leviticus 20:27; Deuteronomy 18:10-13).
Check out: Is prayer to saints / Mary Biblical?
Another thing I agree with, Just Say No to necromancy.
I also agree that the term “praying to saints” in confusing to non-catholics. I tried to point out earlier that the practice is identical to your Prayer Request banner at top. Most people like to submit prayer requests to the intercessors at their local chuch (usually holy old ladies), instead of submitting prayer requests at the local pool hall. Aren’t the saints in heaven more fully alive (in Christ) than those holy old ladies with the prayer blankets?
The english language is a relatively young, comparitively speaking. However many english words in America have a different context than their original use. Have you ever read any Shakespeare, (pray) tell?
Ben,
Mary is “blessed among women”, but not because of who she is. It’s because of what God has done for her. Mary, as the first Christian, gave us her fiat a little earlier in Luke 1:38 “may it be done to me according to your word.” She’s a model for all Christians because of her submission in recognizing that God alone is in control of our lives.
It’s not “all about Mary” as this post was labeled; it’s all about Christ.
And God will hear their requests before ours? So it is about rank, or is your god just hard of hearing?
Dear Brett,
Thank you for writing to me. I appreciate your response but I would just like to respond to your comment.
You seem like a person who is deeply religious I can tell by what you have written. You know all about God and his doctrines but I must warn you that you belong to the RCC and God does not like that Church. The Church is a kingdom of Satan!
As a person who has recently researched the RCC I have come to know that it is false. I have matched the RCC doctrines to Gods true Bible the Holy Bible closely and it does not match.
Vatican City may exist but it is completely wrong that City is run by the Pope and the Pope claims to be a representative of Jesus Christ. The Pope claims to be head of the Church but Jesus is the head of the Church. Do you have scriptural evidence that Vatican City is the true religion the church mentioned in the Bible????
Mary is Jesus’s mother and was a Christian in the Bible. The RCC takes Mary out of Context. One name I found they called her was the Queen of Heaven. Where in the Bible does Jesus say that Mary is the Queen of Heaven????
You say that they couldn’t found Mary’s grave. There is no record of that grave but I can gaurantee you that she did not ascend into heaven. No one has and no one has been judged yet on this earth.
I’m sorry mate but I disagree with you. I’ve researched the Catholic Scriptures and this might be hard to hear right now but I believe the RCC is false. I do not believe any of there doctrines just Gods word.
Brett,
In regards to the Rosary you said you don’t say it regularly please do not pray to it there is no mention of the Rosary in the Bible. Can you show me some proof that the Rosary exists?
It is not biblical to pray to Mary. Mary is dead. You should just pray to God.
Hi Ben,
It’s not about rank at all with me. I’d rather being hangin’ out, having a few beers, and praying with the guys in the pool hall.
“The Lord hears the cry of the poor” – Rs. Psalm 34
“I’d rather being hangin’ out, having a few beers, and praying with the guys in the pool hall.” Out of the mouth the heart speaks.
Amen! to that one Pastor Silva.
Hi Brett,
You might find some of these sermons by John Piper interesting:
http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/Sermons/ByTopic/51/
Ben,
I don’t mean to shock you, but I’ve actually listened to many of Dr. Piper’s sermons and read some of his work. I’ve learned much from him, I appreciate his witness, and I even agree with most of it. Thanks, for the tip though.
You’re a very presumptuous person, Brett : )
Here is a Bible verse that shows that Mary did not ascend into heaven:
John 28-30: “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29and come out—those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned. 30 By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.”
Matthew 24: “He said unto them, Give place; for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth.” And they laughed him into the scorn.
So you see Mary has not ascended into heaven – no one else in this world has except for Jesus Christ.
The Roman Catholic teaches false things and I pray that you open your heart to the truth because the Roman Catholic Church is not the true church of God it is one of the biggest cults.
Hi Venus,
The Roman Catholic church invented the assumption of Mary, because the Bible teaches that death is the result of sin (Eze. 18:4,20; Rom. 6:23). They couldn’t explain how or why Mary died, if she was without sin (Immaculate Conception).
Some more appropriate Scriptures to use would be:
“Jesus said to him, ‘Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone.’” (Luke 18:19)
“For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.” (Rom. 3:23)
“All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.” (Rom. 3:12)
“And Mary said, ‘My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior.’” (Luke 1:47)
Thanks Ben. The Immaculate Conception is so wrong! They also said that Mary was sinless. If Mary was sinless then she would be God. But she is not God she is just an ordinary woman mentioned in the Bible. Mary is not even mentioned in the Trinity Doctrine! The Immaculate Conception is another false doctrine!
Thanks for the appropriate scriptures. They can help catholics understand more about Mary.
Even though Mary’s body hasn’t been found does not mean that she has ascended into heaven the Bible has evidence to proove that no one has ascended into heaven except Jesus Christ. If it were true about Mary the apostles would have mentioned it from Acts to Revelations. The ascension of Mary is not Biblical so there fore it is false.
Oh wait Christians say that Elijah was taken up to heaven and there is proof in the Bible that he has in the Old Testament. Mary, however, has no proof so that is a false claim stated by the RCC about Mary’s ascension into heaven.
The Immaculate Conception, Purgatory, Sacraments and the Adoration of Mary are not mentioned in the Bible and are therefore False doctrines created by the RCC one of the biggest cults. God did not say for us to follow any of this these doctrines are not even biblical. The RCC is teaching another gospel and that gospel is the kingdom of satan.
I pray that you all open your hearts and turn to the real God before its too late……
Thank you!
Venus,
Thank you for all the info, it will take some time to digest it all though. I’m glad we are in agreement about Mary not being mentioned in the Trinity, and that we should not worship Mary. I join you in correcting the poor souls that would worship anyone but God alone.
Can you please tell us how and when the “Trinity Doctrine” originated? And where the word “Trinity” is found in the bible? I can’t seem to find it in my bible.
I think Mary’s Assumption is not mentioned in the gospels because Jesus was the central figure who was murdered, if you’ll remember (Mary was there to witness it and lived to tell others). Jesus’ mother was still walking around while most of the New Testament was being written. In fact she was probably one of the primary sources for the evangelist Luke. That’s where the beautiful first chapter of his gospel came from.
On a side note: You seem to have a very low view of your fellow Christians. I would definitely never label my own wife as “ORDINARY”. I venerate her mostly because she is a child of God that has become one with me, but also because 4 of my young children have been bouncing around in her womb at one time or another. Wouldn’t it be thoughtless of me, to not also venerate the womb that bore my lord and savior Jesus Christ?
[He said to the disciple, “Behold your mother!” And from that hour the disciple took her to his own home. John 19:27]
Trinity; Triunity; Tri(three)-unified; Three united persons in the Godhead. 1. The Father is God (2 Peter 1:17); 2. The Son is God (John 1:1); 3. The Holy Spirit is God (Acts 5:3-4). Now read about the baptism of Jesus. God the Father was in Heaven, God the Son was in the water, and God the Holy Spirit descended like a dove (Mat. 3:16; Mark 1:10; Luke 3:22; John 1:32). Three distinct persons. Each one said to be God.
Or, do you have a more appropriate name for this biblical concept of the triune Godhead?
Mary’s existence isn’t in question here either?? I don’t think anyone believes she disappeared after the resurrection. She may have been one of Luke’s sources, we don’t know. But this isn’t an argument for her assumption or her sinlessness? Neither is the fact that the disciple took her in as his own mother.
“As he said these things, a woman in the crowd raised her voice and said to him, “Blessed is the womb that bore you, and the breasts at which you nursed!” But he said, ‘Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it!’” (Luke 11:27-28)
Ben,
No I accept the Trinity and I don’t have a better name. I am just asking what exactly is the “doctrine of the Trinity”? Where is “The Trinity” specifically mentioned in scripture?
You formulated the definition “Three united persons in the Godhead”. That definition does not exist in the bible. How do I know that’s the right definition and Who was the first to use the word Trinity? How and when did true Christians decide the defenition of the Trinity?
Some nice young guys came by my house a while back (from some kind of 1st Apostolic church). They had their bible out and were telling me that there was no Trinity, and asked me if I “had” the Holy Spirit. They told me that I needed to be baptized “in the name of Jesus”!
Yahweh is one
“Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one. (Deuteronomy 6:4)
Yahweh is the only God
“…the LORD is God in heaven above and on the earth beneath; there is no other.” (Deuteronomy 4:39)
There are three persons
1. The Son was baptized
2. The Spirit of God descended upon Jesus
3. The Father spoke from Heaven
So we have three distinct persons. What does the Bible tell us about each of these persons?
The Father who spoke from Heaven is God
“For when he received honor and glory from God the Father, and the voice was borne to him by the Majestic Glory, ‘This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased,’” (2 Peter 1:17)
The Son who was baptized is God
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.” (John 1:1-2)
The Holy Spirit who descended upon Jesus is God
“But Peter said, ‘Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back for yourself part of the proceeds of the land? While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not at your disposal? Why is it that you have contrived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.’” (Acts 5:3-4)
But as we have already seen, “Yahweh is one” (Deu. 6:4) and there are no other gods (Deu. 4:39), and so there you have the mystery of the Trinity, defined by the Bible. One God, three persons.
I’m not sure what this has to do with anything, Brett.
Ben,
You quoted a lot of scripture texts, but I still dont’ see the word trinity. I’m not a hebrew or greek scholar, but I don’t think it is in the original languages either. Why is your interpretation better than those nice 1st Apostolic fellows that came to visit me?
Did the Nicene Creed contain a correct doctrine of the Trinity?
Brett, do you see what I mean by “presumptuous”? When did I ever say the word “trinity” was found in the Bible? Regardless of what you call it, the concept is there in Scripture. Unlike you can say concerning the original issue you’re so desperately trying to avoid.
Ben,
Sorry, please tell me what issue I am avoiding. My reasoning may not be as clear as Venus’.
It’s ok. You might like this: Sola Scriptura Debate
Ben, I really don’t follow you about what issue I’m avoided. I wasn’t trying to debate you, just trying to have a honest discussion.
Brett,
In response to Venus, you accused us of holding to a traditional, rather than biblical, definition of the godhead. You then attempted to argue that if the word “trinity” is not found in Scripture, then neither is the concept, and therefore, you would say, the assumption of Mary is just as biblical as our definition of the Trinity.
It doesn’t seem as though you are being honest, sorry.
Ben,
I promise I am “accusing” you and Venus of nothing, just trying to communicate.
I only attempted to talk to you, because the original article posted “accused” me and other fellow Christians of believing and teaching things that we neither believe nor teach.
No worries, Brett.
Hi Brett,
Thanks for writing to me.
You said:” I’m glad we are in agreement about Mary not being mentioned in the Trinity, and that we should not worship Mary. I join you in correcting the poor souls that would worship any one but God alone.”
Venus says: “You and I agree about Mary not being mentioned in the Trinity and that we should not worship Mary but your church does. Your church thinks that Mary is sinless and also considers Mary, the Queen of Heaven. What is so sad is that your Church even backs that up. Let me show you some Bible versus I found from Scripture Catholic.”
MARY’S ASSUMPTION INTO HEAVEN (CATHOLICS SUPPORTING EVIDENCE)
Gen 5:24, Heb, 11.5: Enoch was bodily assumed into heaven without dying. Would God do any less for Mary the Ark of the New Convenant?
2 Cor 12:2: Paul speaks of a man in christ who was caught up to the third heaven. Mary was also brought up into heaven by God.
WHAT THE HOLY BIBLE SAYS
Gen 5:24: And Enoch walked with God: and he was not: for God took him (KJV)
Hebrews 11:5: By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him; for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. (KJV)
2 Cor 12:2: I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth: ) such a one caught up to the third heaven. (KJV)
I don’t know what you think about this but I know that this doctrine is wrong the Holy Bible does not support Mary’s assumption into Heaven. The Pope however does but remember if you read the Holy Bible the early christians in the Bible did not do these practices.
You said:” Can you please tell us how and when the “Trinity Doctrine” originated? And where the word “Trinity” is found in the bible? I can’t seem to find it in my bible.”
Venus says:”Ben has explained the Trinity to you in great detail. Thank you Ben for answering Bretts question.”
Venus says: “May I also suggest to continue reading your Bible, Brett.”
You said:” On a side note: You seem to have a very low view of your fellow Christians. I would definitely never label my own wife as “ORDINARY”. I venerate her mostly because she is a child of God that has become one with me, but also because 4 of my young children have been bouncing around in her womb at one time or another. Wouldn’t it be thoughtless of me, to not also venerate the womb that bore my lord and saviour Jesus Christ?”
Venus says:” No, I do not have a very low view of my fellow Christians. I have a very high view of my fellow Christians and I treat them with mutual respect, courtesy and love. I do not consider Mary a Queen (Royalty), or an Ark of the Convenant like your Church does. I just consider Mary, a woman, a christian in the New Testament. I would never pray to her or worship her like your Religion does. The RCC definitely takes Mary out of Context. Now I do not have respect for the Catholic Church, Mormon Church, Jehovahs Witness Church and the majority of Churches because they are not Bible Believing and they turn people from the truth.”
Venus says:” The truth is in Revelations 14:1:” And I looked, and lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having heard his Father’s name written in there foreheads” (KJV). 144,000 will only make it into God’s Kingdom. Will you make it?”
Venus says:” Research the Bible and Research the Churches. ”
Venus says: “It is your choice and your decision.”